Remember when everyone thought phase 4 was going to be about them being the new official group of Avengers?
Like most of people thought it was going to follow the structure of the other phases: solo movies and then the grupal one with these being the New Avengers
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The infinity saga trained us to watch the solos movies because they all lead to the avengers.
Then they stopped making avengers movies and everyone started saying "it feels like they have no overall direction."
MoM had good momentum in that direction, so did Chang chi and she Hulk - but those were kind of the minimum filling in while that Civil War type film came along.
Overall, they have a shared universe but Marvel/Disney makes no effort to let us feel that it's consistently a shared world that keeps moving forward. You keep on wondering why are you watching this thing if it's not really part of the whole and driving the narrative forward.
This appears to be the issue. I don't personally agree because I think the point of watching a movie is to experience the story of that movie - not just to see how it connects to the next one - but that is, apparently, how the MCU fandom feels.
Marvel is the only place where one could see movies that are the culmination of previous works, setting up the next ones with a varied cast without being a sequel but still in the same universe.
That's the MCU unique selling point. If they don't have that then what's the point vs me watching literally anything else.
Another issue is them abandoning things that didn't really huge money at the box office right away. Eternals didnt print like they expected? Ok, don't make a sequel, but don't completely abandon the obvious Celestial sticking out of the ocean for 3 years. It still happened. Smuggling vibranium out of Wakanda was an important element of Ultron and BP3 so why ignore that for so long.
People who make movies based in New York keep harping on about how NYC is a character in the films because of how the city is unique and has a vibe. The MCU should be treated the same way, but each director seems to do whatever they choose without consideration for anything that came before or will come after (e.g. forcing GotG into Thor 4 and then Taika doing nothing with them)
You mean the movie where the Avengers are barely mentioned and none of them even show up, and that other movie where a bunch of C-Listers try to pretend they're the new Avengers? Neither of those movies are Civil War level events, they don't even have half of the worldbuilding that CW had
Set it after The Marvels, so Carol is powered down from restarting a sun. Fury finds out about Skrulls who came to Earth en masse after their new world was destroyed by Dar Benn, and he recruits a team to try to figure out how far the conspiracy has gone.
Initially he only picks people with super-powers, because he thinks Skrulls can't copy those. So Carol, Shuri (because some Skrulls infiltrated Wakanda), Dr Strange, ... and Spidey shows up, but no one recognizes him. Meanwhile Rhodey recruits Sam to do a separate investigation, which is actually an attempt to sabotage Fury.
The Skrulls have infiltrated the Ten Rings, so Shang-Chi investigates too. And a lot of activity is going on in London, so Sprite from Eternals (who's good at illusions) figures out what's up and helps save Sam and Shang from being abducted and replaced.
Have a few action scenes, and then a climax where they all go to the Skrull base, and they discover the device that can grant Skrulls powers, and everyone looks at each other wondering who's been replaced. Rhodey turns on them. Carol and Sam do some high-flying rescue. Dr Strange punches a Skrull's spirit out of its body. Sprite does an illusion to make the lead Skrull (Gravik, who has a grudge against Fury) think he's lured Fury into a trap, but it's actually a double bluff.
Be clever about it. It could've been great.
It’s honestly mind boggling how post EG was planned and executed.
But that's not really the case.
It was beyond stupid.
And then it all came crashing down
Black Panther provided some evidence that focusing on minority characters could bring in significant numbers of new customers while retaining the existing customer base.
The problem was that they started chain-gunning those characters without establishing a reason for the general audience to stay engaged or how all of this fit together.
It wasn't "pandering", it was a very strategic decision with solid rationale behind it, it was just poorly executed.
That said, they didn't do themselves any favors by mainlining the Young Avengers, a group targeted to a very specific narrow demographic with no possibility of mainstream success. Captain Marvel 2 had better odds of success than The Marvels. Quantumania had better odds of success than the Cassie show with Antman as a minor character.
People were speculating we'd see the x gene mentioned in Eternals.
As more and more projects came out and there was no mention of the mutants. I think people became more and more frustrated Marvel was out here promoting characters like Agatha and there is no mention of Cyclops or Wolverine.
Idk I’m clearly not a writer, but there’s lots of things they could’ve done that would’ve been better and made more sense.
And yeah if they could've had an interesting story for a non-world-ending-threat for Avengers, that sure would've been nice. And having someone actually die (and not be resurrected) gives weight and gravitas to the stakes and is almost always a good idea to me, it earns my respect. The concept of a multiverse and if it's infinite it can kinda render all that irrelevant lol
But yeah I guess I do kinda miss the big team-ups.
Which I think most people agree, they fucked up the multiverse stuff pretty fast, nothing had any more stakes and nothing really seemed connected.
You don’t have to build up to an Avengers movie but you do need to have a direction in general.
They decided to call everything after the Infinity Saga the Multiverse Saga and there’s been barely more than a handful of projects that tied into that concept in any way.
There’s been barely any connection between the different movies and shows and main characters like Shang Chi, Moon Knight, Echo, Werewolf by Night, or She-Hulk haven’t appeared outside their own projects.
There’s been quite a few good projects in the MCU post-Endgame but the lack of a cohesive overarching narrative has kept there from being much excitement to see these characters again.
The problem is that many of these characters *debuted on a streaming service* that was expanding as it went (they didn't even expand Disney+ to China even to this day), and the fact Marvel muddled the invisible barrier that was accepted between a movie and a TV show.
It’s the entire problem. People don’t care.
The truth was that past Marvel TV had niche fanbase. And Marvel Studios could have, you know, not blow a blockbuster budget making niche TV stuff in order to tap into those corners. There really wasn't any way Moon Knight or Agatha could become even the B-tier hero that Ant-Man was, but they just had to expect everyone and their mother to subscribe.
Most people didn't give a shit about Runaways, but that got three seasons because enough Hulu subscribers watched that show to recoup the cost and to guarantee another season. Most people didn't give a shit about Moon Knight and they blew the budget so we never hear another thing from Marvel.
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It absolutely was. MCU was so much easier to follow when it was 3 movies a year or so... how many projects have been released THIS year alone? the 3 main movies plus like 4 shows on D-Plus? Don't get me started on the 2022-2023 time period where it seemed like they released over a half dozen movies plus like a dozen shows all of the sudden
Again, it wasn't entirely the case. *Tying these TV characters into the expectation that they could be movie characters* killed them.
Barely anyone bats an eye when old Marvel TV planned a bazillion spin-offs, because it was a one-way relationship. Someone like Cloak or Quake was very *unlikely* to ever appear in a film, and this still stays true even for the Multiverse Saga.
With Marvel Studios, they had the unrealistic expectation of turning streaming actors into household movie stars through TV/movie crossovers. That didn't go well with Ms. Marvel or John Walker.
It can cover the five years in-between the Snap and the Blip. It can still do the other half surviving scenario What If refused to do. Maria Hill may still be alive. Secret Invasion might have never happened in that world. So on and so forth.
This is all because it's still 2016-2017.
(I know....lol)
I actually googled to see if there are any articles about him hating Bucky, and all I saw was him saying Sebastian Stan is perfect casting. Correct! Now do right by Bucky!
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it astounds me the screen producer of it all doesn't get it. So I'm chasing my tail a bit with the cries of "Whyyyyyy?"
Comes across to me like victim blaming.
It's really a strange thing but it's like people somehow find it hard to accept that Bucky was never a villain, and rather easier to just include him in the villains who turned good category, which makes no sense.
My jaw dropped.
If anything I feel like the Wanda corrupted by the Dark Hold could have been Avengers 5- or a Captain America: Civil War type movie where they all have to stop here on a different planet and on Earth-616 the Thunderbolts are being formed.
I think people just assumed that with the time travel aspect of endgame. The logical next step was doing Kang and taking a lot of inspiration from EMH where he comes back because the time heist somehow screwed up his future.
Start small scale, throw in some hints and gradually raise the stakes and the tension, until you've finally got a film worthy event is a great way to do it.
Problem was that the show was awful and did everything badly. There was no interest, no mystery, no paranoia, no real reason to ever care about it as an Avengers issue.
So that is when Marvel thought of adding new characters
Admittedly this is all speculation
We ended up unfortunately, with only losing T'Challa (due to the horrors of the real world) and Wanda, though half the fan base has been screaming nonstop for her return that they'll almost certainly be bringing her back now.
Imagine Carol, Kamala, She Hulk, Ant Man & The Wasp, Wong and Shang Chi swinging in. It’s literally so simple.
The Fantastic Four should always have been the new "main" team in phases 4-6
New cap, Bucky and rhodey, the real one, maybe even a of bit armour wars type of story or skulls having infiltrated key positions thanks to the blip.
Follow up from that scene at the end of shangchi into a sort of magic/super powered avengers adventure with a post credit with Sam recruiting them.
She hulk introduction having some kind of legal case against Antman and/or his buddies and wasp, and they hire Matt Murdock who got Spiderman off that murder case. Bruce comes to antman's support at the end so we have a connection with these and the new avengers.
A real Thor versus Gorr story that was so good in the comics and had so much potential to be a thrilling and emotional film.
Remember how they said they wanted Strange, Carol and T’Challa as the new main trio? Their plan for all three (minus T’Challa for reasons we understand) did not reflect this goal at all. (shotgun front-seating Strange in his own damn sequel and giving Carol The Marvels for a follow up)
Heck, Avengers 5 could’ve been Captain Marvel 2 : Secret Invasion featuring literally these guys for Phase 5 and Avengers 6 being Brave New World for Phase 6.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
So with how everything went haywire around the phases, they couldn't capitalize on building a Young Avengers team, (New) Avengers team, and supernatural team.
This could have been fine if they wanted to keep the Avengers being disbanded plotline, however they needed to still end each phase on some kind of big event film.
Phase 4 ended with Black Panther Wakanda Forever and I get that Black Panther is one of their biggest IPs but it was not an Event movie as far as most people were concerned. Heck, the film didn't even really connected with the wider universe of the MCU at all.
Phase 5 ended with Thunderbolts which sounds fine on paper. It assembles a couple of antagonist characters from shows and films while featuring Bucky. It even ends with the reveal that they are The New Avengers. However, the problem is that most of these characters aren't that popular or well known, even by MCU audience. Additionally, it happens too late in the saga.
Thunderbolts should have been the final film in Phase 4 where it could capitalise on these characters immediately and also give audiences the reveal on how Phases will be like in the Multiverse saga.
The Marvels should have been Captain Marvel: Secret Invasion. Go down the direction of Captain America Civil War where it is a Cap movie front and centre but also a subtle Avengers 2.5 film. Captain Marvel: Secret Invasions would have been that and would have featured many characters that were introduced in the saga while also properly leaning into a small scale Avengers type film.
Phase Four really should have ended with a New Avengers movie based on the Breakout arc from Bendis’ run and cut the horse shit (you could even have Zemo comeback forming the Masters of Evil).
So many wasted potential.
Not having a Avengers crossover at each phase is insane.
The gap between Endgame and Black Widow wasn't long enough, IMO. Side note - Aside from Spider Man, I wouldn't have been totally agains starting fresh with a core group of heroes that had little or nothing to do with Endgame, but that's a different discussion.
I just wish Marvel had had better scripts and decisions.
"The marvels" was okay-ish. Not great but far from the worst marvel movie. Her introduction movie was also on the same level, at least IMO. So on the paper, I should not have a problem with her character but then.. there's this "Karen" haircut and some behaviour. She constantly seems to be treated like a hero / looked up but on the one hand, she's barely ever present. Her power level is straight up absurd and basically beats everything we know and at the same time, she regulary gets "beaten". Also I don't get her character (development). She went out angry at the AI. Ruined a whole planet and when there is actually a way to undo her work and help that people, she activly works against it and seemingly did so for years instead of trying to find a compromise / solution.
What we see in the team-up movie clearly would have worked with any planet (-> without people on it) and the BBEG of the movie was basically only the BBEG because she was mad at Cap Marvel on a personal level and therefore targeted planets that matter to her. Not even the "if she keeps doing it, the universe will collapse" thingy actually mattered.
So maybe that Karen haitcut kinda fits? From all the characters I can think of right now, she is kinda the most stubborn, refusing any input and doing what she thinks is right. Which is even more odd, considering her military background..